Original Question (11/14/11):

 

Patience Frederiksen (AK)

 

I have had Moose Pass Public Library put down their library’s Facebook page as their web page. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Moose-Pass-Public-Library/240440615980373

 

They do have a new blog at http://moosepasslibrary.webs.com/

 

I do not find a ‘classic’ web page for their library.

 

I checked the definition of a web page. All that the wiki says is it starts with http://

 

Opinions? Do blogs and Facebook pages count as web pages?

 

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SDC Comments:

 

Edie Huffman (IN)

 

I’d say if it has an http address, it probably has to be accepted. That definition may need to be beefed up. (I can’t even access Facebook from work unless I can prove that the need is work-related. Jumping through hoops has never been one of my strong points!)

 

However, I would suggest that it should also have some basic information (name, address, way to contact someone, catalog, list of services). This is what our new standards require:

590 IAC 6-1-4 k(5) A website that must include the following:

 

(A) Hours of operation, physical address or addresses, a map for each fixed service location, phone number, and e-mail address.

(B) Electronic resources provided free of charge to the citizens of Indiana by the state of Indiana, for example, INSPIRE.

(C) Public service policies including, but not limited to, circulation policies, fees, and Internet use, adopted by the library board.

(D) The library's online public access catalog.

(E) A calendar of events and programs, which shall be updated at least monthly.

I’ll be interested to see what others have to say. --Edie

 

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Peter Haxton (KS)

 

I agree with Edie. We have several libraries with Facebook pages as their only web presence.

 

The element definition is actually called "web address" which to me means any place on the web, be it a "traditional" webpage, Facebook, MySpace, WordPress blog, etc.

 

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Rob Geiszler (VT)

 

I like the idea of opening this up to blogs, Facebook, etc. (Not so sure about Twitter) The point, it seems to me, is to determine if they have a presence in cyberspace. We know that that environment has changed dramatically.

 

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Ann Reed (OR)

 

Good question.  I looked at the facebook page. It didn’t list hours, or regular programs, location, or offer catalog access, or a lot of things a library web page would, so id be inclined to say no, this isn’t a substitute.

 

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Juan Tomás Lee (UT)

 

Actually, the hours, location, phone, is listed in the INFO link to the left. I would argue that a FB page constitutes web presence. Now, about content and what constitutes a "robust" or what "should" be included is another matter. I do agree, links to the OPAC, online resources provided by library districts, State Library or coonsortia, etc. should be included.

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

My vote is if they have a web presence, be it traditional website, Facebook or wiki, we count it. All I care about is whether someone can find the library online. 

As for what should be included -- I've seen some pretty anemic traditional websites out there, and we count those. I do not want to get into evaluating if libraries put up enough info to count.

 

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Daria Bossman (SD)

 

I agree with Susan!

 

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Bob Keith (NJ)

 

I’m kind of new here but I have a bit of a different opinion. Facebook is a closed system, you need a login and password to access it and to get a login and password you need to provide personal information. Should we be encouraging libraries (which are usually about open, anonymous access for all) to create their Internet presence in such a closed system? We wouldn’t allow a library building to be in a gated community but having a library’s website on a password protected system is doing just that.

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

Actually, no it's not closed -- at least not for the same purposes as a traditional web page serves. You can view pages easily -- you only have to sign in/sign up if you want to post to the wall or comment on other posts. For just putting up information, anyone can access it.

 

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Juan Tomás Lee (UT)

 

I agree with Susan & Daria.

 

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Juan Tomás Lee (UT)

 

Actually, the FB pages for institutions (causes, etc.) are public. Anyone can see them; just needs to "register" if you want to post to it.

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

Actually, no it's not closed -- at least not for the same purposes as a traditional web page serves. You can view pages easily -- you only have to sign in/sign up if you want to post to the wall or comment on other posts. For just putting up information, anyone can access it.

 

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Lauren Miklovic (RI)

 

I agree with Susan as well. Sometimes I shudder to think of some of the "traditional" library web sites out there!

 

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Scott Dermont (IA)

 

Forcing you to sign up to participate. I don’t like that at all. Library customers should be able to participate without signing up with FB.

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

I do agree with Scott. I think we need to adjust the definition.  

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

As opposed to not being able to participate at all, as you have with a traditional web page?

If it's a question of being able to contact or provide feedback to the library, the library can put email, phone, address, etc. on their info page.

 

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Scott Dermont (IA)

 

It’s not the signing up part that bothers me. It is the signing up with Facebook. I have no problems with libraries using Facebook as part of their online presence. But to make it their only online presence limits the amount of customers who can participate.

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

Here’s my proposed definition change:

 

I suggest the definition should be adjusted, so that a login not be required to access the library's web page as in Facebook. Many older and blind or visually impaired people have trouble using Facebook, so if that is the library's sole presence, it is not as user-friendly or accessible as a traditional web site. “

 

I know that my husband, who is blind, has not been able to independently set up or access a Facebook account, and he is fairly computer savvy. Food for thought!

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

You do not have to log in to view a page on Facebook. I've logged out and checked. I can't find anything in the page settings that would allow you to restrict viewing to only those who are registered with Facebook. You can do that with a personal page, but I'm not finding anything that would allow you to do it with an organizational website.

 

You can also set it up so that no one can post to your site -- if you want it to function more like a traditional website, you can. If you're concerned that you have 2 classes of users -- one who can comment and one who cannot -- you can just set it up to publish info but not allow comments from others. 

 

My contention is that a Facebook page offers no less than a traditional web page does. 

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

I’ll have to check it out at home; I’m not allowed to access Facebook at work, even though one of our divisions has a Facebook page! 

 

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Stacey Malek (TX)

 

So, Edie, you can’t go out just look at a library’s Facebook page, like Susan is talking about, at work? I can, so I’m curious. I know a lot of companies/institutions have those kinds of policies, or block Facebook altogether. Would that limit who could view the page, even without signing on?

 

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Frank Nelson (ID)

 

This goes near the heart of my concerns here. I don't know of many k-12 school districts that don't block Facebook. The number of public libraries that block social network sites in unknown but is probably a larger number than we might want to know about. The distinctions between Blogspot and say Facebook vs Drupal, Wordpress, or Plinket etc get pretty fuzzy. Personally, I have no problem with a library webpage being built on any available content management platform as long as it is universally available. I still try to check webpages listed every year, as I believe our Census friends do as well, to see if they are actually there and not 404. I really don't want to set the bar too high, but there does have to be some kind of minimum qualification and that means there has to be something more than a phone number and an address. That's what phone books are for.

 

BTW, the comments on the wiki for the Review sessions planned for KC continue to trickle in. http://plsc.pbworks.com/w/page/47699956/PLS%20FY2012%20Review Technically the Review wiki comment period closes on Nov 22, but I for one will be monitoring the site for additional comments all the way through the conference. Since 163 Webpage is not assigned to any Mentor Group at the moment, Edie has correctly added a comment to the specific element page itself,

http://plsc.pbworks.com/w/page/7422519/163%20Web%20Address

 

So do take time to add your comments, first to the sections assigned to your respective Mentor Group, then to any and all other elements that you feel need to be changed or (gasp) deleted. Oh, of course you will have to login to participate. :) See you all on the Net and in KC in a couple of weeks.

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

Stacey:

Well, when I clicked on Facebook on a library’s webpage, I get an “Access denied” message. When I click on www.facebook.com, I get the message “Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage”. It’s just too much effort to ask our IOT department for access! 

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

Frank:

Thanks for your words of wisdom and clarification! Yes, group definitions have their problems but when you get a lot of intelligent, motivated, engaged people to put their minds to situations, one gets a lot of good thought and interaction!  See you all in KC (I just got the ok; the paperwork had sat on someone’s desk for one month L Once I started asking about it, it appeared!) “All’s well that ends well”!

 

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Michael Golrick (LA)

 

Here is the note I posted on the wiki (in case you are not registered to get the updates):

 

You have conflated two issues. First is the issue of whether or not Facebook only constitutes a web presence, which is a discussion on our list at the moment. The other issue is whether or not the web presence meets accessibility requirements. Now, I believe (but do not know for sure) that Facebook does meet at least some of the requirements since I have at least one Facebook "friend" who is blind. In fact, I would argue that we should include the accessibility issue in the definition, but not mention any particular web-based service.

 

I really do think it is two issues, and we should talk about them separately.

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

MIchael:

Yes, you are right. Since we don’t ask about accessibility for anything else, (programs, materials, etc.), probably we should not even discuss it here. But, it does related to my point about Facebook not being a good only web presence.

 

Happy Friday to all; see you in KC. 

 

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Bruce Pomerantz (MN)

 

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So, if you don’t have an organization’s Facebook URL and a link to the URL is not available on any other site, the only way to obtain access the Moose Lake Public Library website is to register on Facebook. Once you obtain the URL, you can delete your Facebook page. I do not call that accessible.

 

P.S.—I skipped to “page 6” in the Moose Pass Google listings to see if Facebook got relegated down. On page 6 was NCES’s search for library results information on Moose Lake Public Library for the year 2005.  

 

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Susan Mark (WY)

 

That's odd -- I googled a couple of ours, and the Facebook link came up on the 1st page of hits.

 

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Rob Geiszler (VT)

 

I don’t use Google anymore, since they started giving Fox News that preferential real estate on the news page, so I can’t speak to what a Google search will generate.  Instead, I’ve been using duckduckgo. Putting in Moose Pass Public Library brought up their Facebook page as the second hit. Clicking on it brought me to the Moose Pass PL page, immediately, just as if it were a regular web site. No account or log in necessary. Sure looked like a web page to me.

 

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Bruce Pomerantz (MN)

 

I tried the same query and this time the Facebook entry was number 6 on the first page.

 

I tried Moose Pass Public Library on Bing. The first time, again nothing. The second time, it was number two in the list.

 

I’m uncertain now how I feel. I don’t think I would have tried a second time if Susan hadn’t said she was successful.

 

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Kathy Sheppard (SC)

 

I concur – have been able to find Moose Pass PL in Facebook through Google and through the Facebook page search (tiny print at bottom of Facebook page.) So there is no requirement for anyone to register with Facebook in order to find this page; but, like just about any web search, it takes a certain willingness to persist in the search.

 

If this is what the library can afford (as opposed to paying someone to build and maintain a site) and it is easier than maintaining a blog (which can also carry hosting fees), then Facebook is a good option for a library of small means. Some of our libraries have gotten their web pages built for free or at reduced rates by various well-meaning helper-outers, who then abandon the project leaving the library with outdate information – they would have been better off with a Facebook page, which at least is consistently formatted and easy enough to find, modify, post pictures on, etc.  

 

Plus, doesn’t the entire world use Facebook at this point? What better exposure can you find?

 

I think “web presence” is what we are looking for and not necessarily “web page.”

 

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Michael Golrick (LA)

 

This conversation reminds me of some work that Walt Crawford is doing. His blog is here: http://walt.lishost.org/

 

Back in August he noted:

I reached a milestone yesterday, completing Phase 1 of my 2012 book project–that is, checking public libraries/library agencies in half of the U.S. states for presence on Twitter or Facebook. More than 2,500 libraries checked in all, starting near the end of July. (There will be a followup, intended to be precisely three months after the initial scans.)

 

Here is more info from a post in late October:

I’m currently interleaving work on the draft text for Libraries in Social Networks (working title, from ALA Editions, some time next year with luck) with work on expanding my survey of actual public library presence on Facebook or Twitter from the current 25 states and 2,406 libraries to a total of 38 states and 5,957 libraries (or, if energy runs out, 36 states and 4,963 libraries).

 

I’m doing the remaining 13 states (all of them I hadn’t already done and that have readily-available spreadsheets of library names and population served) in alphabetic order–except that, regarding the parenthetic note in the previous paragraph, I’ve now moved Pennsylvania and Texas to the end, since those are the two with the largest number of reporting libraries.

 

So, I guess that has me thinking about what the question really is. Is the question: Does the library have a web site? Or is the question: Does the library have a presence on the web? [Of course, both of those don’t answer the question: why are we asking, and why do we care?]

 

There certainly is not much language of explanation for data element 163, and I wonder if some of the folks who have been at this for a while remember the goal in asking the question. It certainly seems like some further discussion is needed.

 

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Edie Huffman (IN)

 

Michael and others:

I think we are asking, to make sure that they do (all sorts of interest in that) and to get an address, in one easy location? I agree, we need further discussion and a more detailed definition. 

 

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Patience Frederiksen (AK)

 

It seems to me that when we discussed adding web addresses as a data element, we were doing it simply as directory-type info for each library. Does the library have a fax? Does the library have a web page? This is why the data definition is so short, if I recall correctly. The web page was just another way to get info about the library out to the public.

 

FaceTweets did not exist when we added web page address to the data elements. So, now the question could be changed to one of web presence, which would allow for web pages, blogs, facebook, twitter, and any other social networking application that comes down the pike.

 

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Ann Reed (OR)

 

Lol, what Edie said. I recall the time the debate was library service beyond the walls vs. the brick and mortar, and getting an idea of who was getting out on the Net.